Gypsy horses, a breed, a type, or just some horses that the gypsies have?

Many people ask us to tell them about the registry that the gypsies have for these horses.  Well, since most true gypsies, or Romany folk as they are known, don't read nor write, they therefore don't write down blood of a horse.  Records are kept much like the Native Americans kept their history records, by word of mouth and stories told.  As for the thought that only a registry with papers makes a breed, consider this...  British and Irish Gypsy horses have been bred for generation after generation by a small, unique group of people on a few small and unique group of islands just west of Europe.  Geography alone goes a long way toward ensuring breed type in this situation.  The oral history on blood of horses is accurate, this can only be experienced and appreciated by getting to know the people who "created" this breed of horse.  

We can tell you for sure that, in spite of the lack of papers, the gypsy cold-blooded horses ("traditional") are a definite type, that breeds true.  They have been bred the same way for generation after generation, some lines over 100 years, which is longer than most breed registries have been around.  A type that has been bred for generations and that breeds true is the fundamental definition of a breed, papers or no.  As any good old-timer will tell you, papers don't make a horse.  Just because no one decided to start writing down horse names hundreds of years ago, DOES NOT mean that these horses are any less of a breed than any other.  They are, in fact, a breed that is still "open" to the addition of individual horses that compliment the type.  Many British as well as U.S. horse registries are open to horses that compliment their type as well.  The difference is only the sheet of paper that it is written on.   Any one that is realistic will also concede that in breeds that have papers, unless there is parentage verification on each horse, that the purity of a line is only as good as the honesty of it's breeder.   That said, there are several different registries that do register these horses, although none are breed-specific.  We register our horses with the British Piebald and Skewbald Association and the Coloured Horse and Pony Society of Great Britain.  There are also a few North American Registries that are recently begun that are available for registering gypsy cobs. 

What's the difference between a Traditional Gypsy/Drum Horse and a North American Spotted Draft, or other spotted draft type horse?  Genetics and Feather!  There are plenty of spotted draft horses in the US and Canada, most of which have been bred from Belgian and Percheron stock.  There are some with Shire or Clydesdale blood in them, but it takes at least 2 generations, usually 3, to get the feathering and British draft breed characteristics back.  Before then, the stock just looks like a large pinto horse, with maybe a smattering of hair on the legs.  When you see a real gypsy horse or drum horse, the horse will just SCREAM Shire/Clyde at you, with the body characteristics, and all of the hair and feather.  In fact, when we are in the UK and see solid colored gypsy horses from a distance, we still cannot tell the difference between them and a shire until we are standing alongside and can see the size.  

Don't let someone tell you that you can breed a Shire or Clydesdale horse to a spotted light horse and get a gypsy type horse.  This can't be further from the truth.  That will give you a spotted draft cross, which looks like a spotted warmblood.  When  you breed out the bone and feather with a cross like this, you cannot get it back for several generations.   You also lose the coldblooded aspect of your horse, as gypsy horses, drum horses and shires are completely coldblooded draft horses.

Bottom line, if it looks exactly like a Shire or Clydesdale, and has the great feather and hair to match it, and happens to be tobiano spotted, it is most-likely a gypsy or drum horse!

What's the difference between a traditional gypsy horse and an "Irish Cob", or a "Gypsy Vanner"?  Although generically, calling a colored, feathered cob-sized horse a gypsy horse is not a huge faux-paux, technically, there is a difference between Colored Cobs (many call them Irish Cobs), and gypsy horses.  A traditional gypsy horse can be an Irish Cob (by their registry's definition), but most Irish Cobs are not traditional gypsy horses.  A gypsy horse (frequently called a "Gypsy Vanner horse" by Americans) is a horse which is bred by gypsies, and will have generations of breeding and pedigree behind it.  It will have blood from a preserved and protected line, and that blood will be known among the gypsy breeders.  An Irish Cob is generally a horse without a past.  Many Irish Cobs are cross-bred gypsy cobs, being partially light horse blood, and are quite refined and not well-feathered.   Although some of the dealers that sell this type of horse know the sire or dam of their horse, they won't have come from the long bred and preserved lines.  Any traditional gypsy horse can be registered as an Irish Cob, but most Irish Cobs can't be called traditional gypsy horses.   Physically, traditional gypsy horses will have specific characteristics that gypsies are breeding for at any given time (ie, small size, "sweet" heads, compact bodies, good bone, HEAVY feather, etc).

Over in the British Isles, you see colored, feathered horses all over the place.  Usually they don't have tons of feather, or won't be conformed as well as some might like.  These are the horses that the gypsy lads call "trade horses".  This means that they are the cheap horses that you find at auctions, and in slaughter pens.  Of course, not all "trade horses" are junk, and there are people who specialize in going to sales and such to find a decent one or two, and then they work it a bit, and sell it as an "Irish Cob".  This horse has a place in society, of course, and are indeed the majority of the colored, feathered "using horses" that you see around Britain and Ireland, but they shouldn't be confused with a traditional gypsy horse of good breeding and pedigree.  Although the horses that have this sort of history can be wonderful for riding, or driving, or whatever, if you are serious about breeding, you would do better to consider a traditional gypsy horse.  At BFSGH, we specialize in traditional gypsy horses, but we also occasionally offer a few nice specimens of the other type as well.  The horses without a past will almost always be cheaper than a true gypsy horse, for obvious reasons.   Confused about feather?  Click here for more information on feather.

What is a Gypsy Vanner?  The term Vanner, among gypsies, means a lighter boned and legged, larger cross-bred horse, used for pulling the milk wagor, or similar vehicle through town.  A true gypsy would never call a traditional, heavy gypsy cob a "vanner".  As one of the most respected, and established breeders of these horses in England told us, "If I called the lads to tell them about my best filly of the year, I would be doing her no favors if I called her a "vanner".  I thought that summed it up pretty well.  

The name Gypsy Vanner was trademarked a few years ago by a man in Florida, who then created the Gypsy Vanner Society.  Through this gentleman's superb marketing skills, the name "Gypsy Vanner" has become well known within the USA.
     In essence, the name refers to the same horse.  There is no difference in them, especially now that the, "Gypsy Vanner Horse Society" registers horses which meet the breed type, no matter what their heritage.  The GVH Society formerly only registered horses which they bred or imported, but now anyone can register this type of horse with them.    The GVHS has over the years evolved into a democratically run association, and has grown quite a bit.  For the last few years running, horses from BFSGH (registered as Vanners by their owners) have swept top honors at the Gypsy Vanner National Shows.   Indeed, many of the best promoted "Gypsy Vanners" originated from BFSGH.

     For people who would like to register their horses, please see our section on registries. 

The term Gypsy Cob may be a much more proper name for this breed, although the traveling people themselves usually refer to them as Coloured cobs.  Since the American trend is for owning and breeding larger individuals of this breed, we feel that the term Gypsy HORSE is the most encompassing name for them, and this name has become quite standard in North America.  Gypsy Cob is a good, and proper name as well, but it's sometimes hard to convince people that a horse standing 15.2 hands is a "cob".  Nobody disputes that these are "horses", so it's a good, standard "generic" name for them.. 

Why do I see so many horses available for sale elsewhere that don't have very much bone or feather, and that don't look like the horses you sell?  This type of horse is extremely common in England and Ireland, and are considered to be "a dime a dozen" by both regular British horse people, and gypsies alike.  The gypsy lads call these the "trade horses" (for more info, see above), most of which end up as dinner for many a European.  These horses cost just as much to import, but in the end, you won't have what most prospective buyers are looking for, a true, heavy, traditional cob.  If you just want a horse to love, use, and have fun with, then you could consider one of these (of course, they aren't much different than a shire crossed with a paint, which would be MUCH cheaper), but just be aware that the resale value isn't nearly as good, and you rarely recoup your import costs.  The heavy traditional gypsy-bred horse is what most people want, so if you are going to spend the money to import a horse, especially if you want to breed, you will want to consider importing one which will be desirable to the public.   Prices for the cheap, lighter type of horse should be cheap (you can buy them over there for prices starting in the hundreds of pounds/euros), but when you add the import costs, they are still not cheap horses on this side of "the pond".  Be aware that many people will call their "half-leggers" traditional gypsy cobs, but the proof is in the pudding.  Compare some pictures of the top truly traditional, gypsy-bred horses around on this site and others, and then make your own "call" on that.  (click here for more info on feather)  Don't let people fool you on trying to tell you that a trade horse has a good pedigree either!  This is one of the biggest scams around.  You can look at the horse and very often tell if it's truly traditionally bred.  Ask the person selling who parents of the horse are, and then check the source.  Ask them where they got the horse (usually at an auction, if they will admit it).  Unfortunately, you will often find that some dealers do "enhance" pedigrees on horses.  Be careful!  Many of these dealers don't know any gypsies or know the bloodlines, but will take names off of other web sites such as this one, and try to say their horses are bred the same way!  Be careful!

I want to breed gypsy/drum horses.  Can I breed a non-feathered breed of horse to your stallions and get a gypsy horse?  The main difference you will get here is in the HAIR.  Although the crossbreds are highly in demand as using horses, if you want to keep the feather, you will have to use only feathered breeds in your "mix".  Feather is actually quite a recessive trait, and if you breed it out in one generation, it will take 2-3 generations to get it back to what is considered "a feathered horse".  The best way to get a drum type horse in the US, without using an imported mare, is to breed a Shire or Clydesdale mare with a gypsy or drum stallion.  For more complete description of feather, see the article called "The Truth About Feather"

What do I look for in a GOOD gypsy horse?  A good gypsy horse should have the basic same good conformation points as any draft horse.  He/She should have a nice, short back, with a well sloped shoulder who's angle compliments the angle of the well rounded croup.  A short back is achieved by a sloped shoulder and a nice croup, so you will see these things together.  Steep, straight shoulder and rump are very common faults in these horses and should be avoided as it should in any horse breed, as it is just bad conformation.  These faults will usually make the horse seem to have a very long back, which is unfortunately fairly common in heavy type horses.  

The head should be in proportion to the size of the animal, with a kind, gentle eye.  Roman nose is acceptable, as long as the head isn't too big for the rest of the horse.  A small, tidy pony type head is fine as well, as long as it isn't too small for the horse's body.  The neck should sit well up on the horse's well sloped shoulder, and be of appropriate length for the body.  

The legs should be clean and flat in bone and joints, with plenty of bone to support that massive body.  There should be no question that this is a DRAFT horse.  Hind legs need to have some angle to the bend of them, with very straight hind legs being a very common fault of conformation in these horses.  (you will often find the straight "post legs" in a horse with a very steep croup).  The pastern should be at the same angle as the shoulder, and be long enough to give the horse proper flexion and spring when moving.  Short pasterns are not only unsightly, but become unsound long before a pastern of proper length.  Short pasterns are also very prevalent in gypsy horses of marginal quality, and are indeed the number one fault that causes us to reject a horse that has been presented to us.  I would say that about one quarter of gypsy type horses in the USA today have pasterns which are too short for the horse.  These have been sold to unsuspecting buyers that don't know what terrible lameness issues that can arise from this fault.  Long pasterns aren't common in this breed.  As a matter of fact, I can't think of ever seeing a pastern in a gypsy horse that was conformationally too long.  Hind legs should have a bit of "set" to them, as any horse bred for pulling should. 

This picture shows a Clydesdale's (more extreme) "set".  This horse was a big money horse at the 2005 National Clydesdale sale.
This is what draft breeders look for!

Another REALLY nice example of proper "gypsy" horse set.  You have to look "through" the hair.  If you do that, you can see the canon bones are perfectly parallel all the way down, but that the leg itself is "set" at a bit of an angle, as it should be! 

 Example of really BAD hind legs - Pardon the black-out areas. it's not my picture or horse, so I had the picture blacked out a bit.  These are some of the worst hind legs I have ever seen on a cob.  This is for a quarterhorse, NOT a gypsy (or any driving horse).  Notice the wide stance, and the non-angulation of the leg.  This horse couldn't pull a light-weight cart for very long without getting sore with legs like this.  The English gypsy breeders would never choose a horse like this for their breeding herd.  Note:  This may just be the angle of the shot, or the way the horse was standing (I didn't take the picture, so I can't say) but if you see a horse that always naturally stands like this, you don't want it!

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Hair.  Although hair does not make the horse, in order to be a traditional gypsy cob, you have to have at least as much hair as in a modern day Clydesdale or Shire horse...  In order to be a good one, you have to have LOTS more hair than that!  The hair should cover the front of the hoof.  If it doesn't, you may have a lovely horse, but it is not a traditional gypsy cob.  On a traditional gypsy cob, the more hair (feather) the better.  There is no such thing as too much.  Hair is, of course, not everything, but without the hair on a traditional gypsy horse, you cannot have everything.  If you have two nice, and identical mares, and one has twice as much feather as the other, that "heavier" mare is worth at least  twice (much likely more like 4-5 times) what the other mare is worth!  If she's a poorly conformed horse with lots of feather, she still isn't worth much.  The two ingredients to make a *TOP* gypsy horse are wonderful conformation AND tons of hair.  For more complete description of feather, see the article called "The Truth About Feather"

You'll notice I did not mention color, markings, or eye color in the above points.  This is because the most important thing in ANY horse is the conformation, and pretty color and markings are just icing on the cake.  Eye color and markings ARE NOT factors which make a gypsy horse good or not.  Don't be fooled by some sellers who will tell you that this is what most matters in these horses!!!  A good breeder will look first at quality of the horse, and then put the skin, eyes, and hair back on him or her.  We must say that we have seen FAR too many horses billed as "the best" simply based on the fact that they have pretty markings and lots of hair.  Strip the hide of these horses and you have just plain junk.  PLEASE be sure to look under the color and feather!  Conformation first, always!

Weight of a gypsy horse.  I thought I would touch on this, because one of the most common problems we see with new owners of these horses is that they aren't used to the draft horse body type.  They often think that a horse is too fat, when, in fact, the horse might be just this side of starved.  These horses should have a nice, big draft horse barrel.  If you can feel ribs, your horse is not in top condition.  A gypsy horse in good, show condition will have what we call "Apple Butt".  He should have a nice, rounded behind, with the bone down from the roundness of the behind.  If the bone is the highest point on the horse's back or behind, he's way too thin.  This is different from the thoroughbred body type, or most light horses.  Remember, this is a DRAFT horse. 

EXAMPLES OF CONFORMATION

Perfect ???  I don't know...  But She's darned close!  
On this 4 year old mare, note the beautiful neck and shoulder, tying into the short back which ties into the nicely rounded croup.  Then drop your eye to the hind leg, where you can see that the back of the cannon bone is at exactly the same distance out from the body as the peak of the rump, by the tail.  The belly is twice as long as the back, and that ties in nicely to the good, straight, flat front legs, which have pasterns which match the angle of the shoulder perfectly.  A beautiful head and neck finishes off this filly.  Add to that her great hair, color and markings, to make the overall package just nearly perfect!   Notice how the hair on her front legs starts up at the knee, IN FRONT.  A "heavy" one will have this.  No hairless front pasterns and cannons, that would be a cheaper horse.  I had wished I owned this one.  (I do own her full sister, Bonny.)  All I can say is WOW.  (Note, I "wished" so hard, that I did buy this one back for ourselves!  I kicked myself every day for letting her get away when we sold her the first time, so when she was available, we immediately bought her back!  See "Babydoll" for all the details on our girl!)

And the other end of the spectrum...  
Yep, this is one that we looked at.  Actually, we have looked at hundreds like this.  Sure this filly, a coming yearling, would look better with a worming, some food, and a good grooming, but the basic conformation is apparent no matter what the shape of the coat or the general condition of the horse is.  
Specifically, compare the shoulder and rump on this filly  to the angles of those of the mare above.  See the steep shoulder and rump on the filly, which makes her back very long.  Her straight shoulder makes it nearly impossible for this poor filly to get her head up in the air.  Look how awkward she is at holding it up even that high!  Check out the lack of angle on her hind leg, and the incredibly short pasterns.  THIS is what you get when when you want to spend a couple hundred pounds (British currency, which equals about $400 dollars) on one of these horses.  You will hear from many people that "you can get these horses at auction for a few hundred quid (bucks)".  Hopefully people understand the difference between these, the indiscriminately bred, and the high quality prized stock that many of the old time gypsies spend their lives trying to improve.  Just like in any horse breed, you get what you pay for!  BTW, anybody want this filly?  You can have her, imported into the US for about $6000 (if she hasn't already gone through the local auction house). She has decent hair and doesn't have any blue eyes, so she must be a good one, right?   Not for me thank you...

Pet Peeve, one of the main faults I see in these horses...  SHORT pasterns.  Pasterns that are too short will make a horse lame (through ringbone and sidebone).  You won't ever see a 20 year old draft type horse working if it has the short pasterns that are so common in inferior examples of the coloured cob horses, they go lame well before then.  I don't like a really straight hind leg either, but at least it won't lame a horse as fast as the pasterns that we see.  Incidentally, almost every horse with WAY too short pasterns that I have seen has come from Ireland - don't ask me why... 
Example:  A horse that we looked at in Europe, and rejected for the "mortal sin" of short pasterns on a big horse, made his way to the USA with another importer.  The new buyer had X-rays done on this very young, unbroke horse, and found that he had ringbone and sidebone, at a very young age!  Incidentally, this horse had scored VERY HIGHLY at the Irish Cob Society inspection just a few months before this all came about.  Exactly what we predicted for the horse (short pasterns makes for a horse with ringbone and sidebone eventually) had come true, even sooner than we thought.  Don't make this mistake!  The bigger the horse, the bigger the problem, we have seen this for decades in drafts.  And don't confuse the Irish Cob inspections for a conformation evaluation, that they are not! 

References of numerous buyers happily supplied!